The word choice means "an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities" (oxford). The important part is "2 or more possibilities". If God knows what we are going to choose then is that really a choice? Many people say that just because God knows what you are going to choose doesn't mean that you don't have a choice. I would disagree. If God knows what we are going to choose then wouldn't we only have 1 option? And for something to be a choice you have to have 2 or more possibilities. I know that the immediate reaction is that this steps all over the definition of "omniscient". But maybe it doesn't. Maybe God really does know all our choices in perfect detail and we really don't have any. Now this doesn't mean that God necessarily had a hand in deciding our paths. Maybe things just are a certain way. That would keep the "omniscient" title in tact.
Another possibility for God "omniscient" label to remain true would be to look at the definition of "omniscient"..."knowing everything." (oxford) I'd like to put a little tag on this. Let's be more specific and re-define it as "knowing everything that is knowable". What if God sees the future as a realm of possibility that is greatly limited by our past decisions and is also limited by everyone else's realm of possibilities? God knows the past in perfect detail. God also knows the present in perfect detail. God also perfectly knows all of us. All these factors combine to limit each person's "realm of possibilities" as God may see it.
Let me refute some common arguments about this.
1. I know this goes completely against traditional Christian teaching so quoting scripture to me won't help. I didn't come up with this question through some deep study of scripture. I'm simply asking questions.
2. "What about prophesy? That stuff came out to be true. If God doesn't know the future then how could that work?" It works because God is also omnipotent, meaning He is all-powerful and He also has free-will. Even I can say that next week on Wednesday at 12:10pm I am going to 7-11 to buy a slurpee. That doesn't infringe on anyone else's freewill...and I am definitely not God.
3. "Just because God knows what you are going to choose doesn't mean you don't have a choice." I would disagree. If God knows what I am going to choose then I have no ability to choose something different. Which, I would say, means I have no choice.
Ok...here it is. My "big" theological problem that I have been turning around in my head for months. I always said I'd never post this, but here goes. I'd like to conclude with a few thoughts...I do not know the answer to this question. I am asking these questions because I feel they are valid questions. But in reality they may not even be the right questions. "I know nothing except that I know nothing." When I die, if I find the answer, I may not even be in the ball park with the actual truth. But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't ask. If you don't ask then you don't get an answer. So I look forward to your responses.
If your responses are rude I will delete them. I am not posting this to get some ridiculous argument started. Nor am I posting this to attack anyone. I am posting this because I am searching for insight that I don't have, which I am hoping you may have.
So...thoughts?
5 comments:
Now this is going to be an interesting one. I promise not to be rude and to keep this within the realm of good philosophical discussion. Let me give the quick response to your 3 common arguments first. I'll certainly give this some serious thought and consideration before responding in depth, but I can't resist a few initial thoughts.
Argument 1: You have initiated a discussion about "God" and then immediately discount the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, which are the source for our society's concept of "God." The idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving God, comes from the Bible, so it isn't really possible to have a discussion of that idea of God, without including the concepts found in Scripture. I understand why you don't want to have them in the discussion (Christian's are often over-zealous with slinging them around and less zealous about logical, reasoned arguments). If you want to have this discussion sans Scripture, then you need to define God in philosophical terms that are not dependent on the definition we find in Scripture. Without clear parameters of what God is or isn't, there is no way to tackle this very thorny problem.
Argument 2: Your counter to prophecy is not really a strong argument. Yes I can say that next Wednesday at 12:10pm I am going to 7-11 to buy a slurpee, and then I can fulfill it myself. However that doesn't really match with what Biblical prophecy does. Now the fact that people have free choice comes in to play here, because many prophecies are not directly "fulfilled" by God, but rather by people. More on that later. The 7-11 analogy would be more accurate if you said, "On Wednesday at 12:10pm I am going to 7-11 to buy a slurpee, but they're going to be out of Moutain Dew Slurpees and I'll have to get a Coke one, and a 35-year-old man in a red shirt and torn jeans is going to come in and buy three packs of Marlboro Lights while I'm there." That would be an analogy that better fits with what prophecy in the Scriptures does.
Argument 3: Knowing what someone will choose, doesn't infringe on their choice. For example I know that Chase will choose a movie about skateboarding over a movie about knitting. I also know that Lila will choose chocolate over green beans every day. Knowing this doesn't infringe on their freedom to choose. These are simplistic examples, but they illustrate the basic idea.
I would also add that IF God is real, and IF God is the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, supreme creator of the universe, there may be some aspects of Him that we cannot grasp. That is not an easy way out of the discussion, because I will give this one some time and even some research, it is however an idea that we might be stuck with. If God is the cause of the universe, then He MUST be completely outside of, and other than the universe, which means that we cannot expect the rule that govern our universe, to also govern Him.
I will have more to say later, after some serious thought. This is fun. I hope I haven't said anything too rude, and I certainly don't feel attacked. I have often said that if Christianity is really true, then it has nothing to fear from serious questioning.
I look forward to hearing your responses.
JC
I think it's very difficult to have a discussion about God outside of the Bible. Yes, even nature declares Him to us, but still... it's very difficult. Truth told, I can't really do it, and you know I'd try cuz I do love talking about Him. :)
I don't think that your definition of "omniscience" works. You can't redefine the word, really. If it means "knowing everything," we can't adjust it to fit our cause. If we say that He does, in fact, know everything, we run into all kinds of problems (most of which are not easily answered, and I myself struggled with some of them for a long time before I came to answer that I was satisfied with). For example, if He knew what Adam and Eve would do, why did He put the tree there? He didn't have to do it at all. He certainly could have left out that tantalizing tree that brought forth the choice that brought death to the earth. So, why didn't He? Was there a purpose to it? I think that there was, and oh, the wonder of it - that we could glorify and enjoy Him forever! I'm convinced. But then you knew that already. :)
I am not God, but I know that if I put out two bowls in front of my dog, one bowl is filled with meatballs and the other with regular dog food ... he will go for the one with the meatballs. He definitely has a choice in the matter but I definitely know which one he will choose.
On the other hand, if I put two bowls with different brand of dogfoods, I'm not sure which one he will choose. I guess whichever one smells better. But I am not God. God would know because he is all-knowing, but that doesn't stop old Whitey (my dog) from making his own choice based on his sense of smell.
John...defining God is very difficult and I guess I counted on a default generalized assumption of the definition of God. So in general a Being that encompasses the "omni's".
Your counter point on "prophecy" is good. I'm going to have to think on it.
In the case of your kids choosing food...they always have the potential to surprise you. Sure they are very likely to choose cake over carrots. But the potential is there to surprise you. And many times in life people do surprise us. I'm saying this may be true of God as well. He has a all the information available to Him to know what we are likely to choose. He also knows all the options available to choose from. But if He knows beyond a doubt the choice we make then that leaves us with one choice. Which isn't a choice.
I agree that the mystique about God is what makes God so important. If God were simply another thing to know...like we can know biology or physics then there's almost no point. God deals and exists in a sense of immeasureability. Science can tell you many things...but those things have to be quantifiable. Science cannot give us value. Sciece can measure all the elements that make up your wife, and then tell us how much all those elements are worth. But science cannot tell you how much your wife is worth to you. God is this. God of worth. God are those things we cannot measure with instruments...only with the heart.
Jenn...In order to have these conversations you have to clarify meaning. If you have a discussion with a Hindu about God without each of you defining what you are referring to when you say "God" then you aren't even talking about the same thing. I didn't redefine a word. I clarified definition.
Matt...you point about your dog is interesting. But if your dog has the ability to choose and not just act on instinct then he has the ability to surprise you. Sure will probably choose meatballs over kibble. But, if he can choose, then he has the ability to surprise you. Do we have the ability to occasionally surprise God in the same way?
Hello Scott, we have a mutual friend. I hope you don’t mind me jumping into your conversation. :]
It should be noted that #2 might give you some trouble down the road. Assuming 2 is correct, that all prophesy comes true strictly because God wills it, then this presents a problem for the open theists (I’m not saying you are one) because their goal is to protect the liberty of man’s will. Yet, all prophesy is such that it involves the lives of men and women in an incredibly detailed and complex way.
For example, God prophesying that Israel would be taken into captivity, for this to happen God has to orchestrate entire nations of people to accomplish what He wills. The open theists in trying to counter prophesy with such an argument as “God also has a free will” only ends up hurting themselves, simply because in order for God to fulfill prophecy He has to impose His will on our will. At least, that’s one way to look at it. God’s omnipotence trumps our free-will, if you define it as the open theists does.
As far as #3 goes, analytic philosopher Alvin Plantinga in his book “God, Freedom, and Evil” tackles this thorny issue, and within a page and half cuts it up nicely. I’m going to summarize him, which is hard because he already writes in a cogent manner.
“ (1) If God knows in advance that X will do A, then it must be the case that X will do A
And
(2) If it must be the case that X will do A, then X is not free to refrain from A.
From (1) and (2) if follows that if God knows in advance that someone will take a certain action, then that person isn’t free with respect to that action. But (1) bears further inspection. Why should we think it’s true? Because, we shall be told, if God knows that X will A, it logically follows that X will do A: it’s necessary that if God knows p, then p is true. But this defense of (1) suggests that the latter is ambiguous; it may mean either
(1a) Necessarily, if God knows in advance that X will do A, then indeed X will do A
Or
(1b) If God knows in advance that X will do, then it is necessary that X will do A
The argument requires the truth of 1b, but the above defense of (1) only supports 1a, not 1b. It is indeed necessarily true that if God (or anyone else) knows that a proposition P is true, then P is true; but it simply doesn’t follow that if God knows P, then P is necessarily true. If I know that Henry is a bachelor, then Henry is a bachelor is a necessary truth; it does not follow that if I know that Henry is a bachelor, then it is necessarily true that he is. I know that Henry is a bachelor: what follows is only that Henry is married is false; it doesn’t follow that it is necessarily false.”
One of the key words used throughout is “Necessary” if you’re unfamiliar with this, then this should help. :]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessary_and_sufficient_condition
If you don’t mind I would also like to address the possibility that your definition of free-will is not a good one. Your definition leads to the problem of God’s omniscience and man’s will colliding, however, if you change it then the issue sort of vanishes. I’m assuming you hold to a libertarian view, given your argument you proposed earlier in the post. What you should realize is that even God doesn’t have free-will in the libertarian sense. God is omnipotent, He can do whatever He wants whenever He wants. However, God will never desire to lie or perform evil. If God had free-will in the libertarian sense, then He could lie and perform evil. If God doesn’t have libertarian free-will, then how are we to suppose that the created is freer than the Creator?
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